From Bill Condon, the Academy Award-winning writer-director known for such films as Gods and Monsters, Chicago, Dreamgirls and Beauty and the Beast, comes a visionary new interpretation of the literary and cultural landmark, Kiss of the Spider Woman
Q: Kiss of the Spider Woman has such a storied history. The novel was, of course, first brought to the screen in 1985, with William Hurt winning an Oscar for his performance as Molina. Only eight years later, the musical debuted, going on to sweep the Tony Awards. How did you come to adapt and direct this new incarnation of Kiss of the Spider Woman? Was it something you had been hoping to do for some time?
Bill Condon: This was something I first thought about when I was writing the script for Chicago. It struck me that Molina is someone who lives inside the world of the movies, which made it a natural fit for a film adaptation. I see it as the third part of a Kander and Ebb trilogy, along with Cabaret and Chicago. The lead characters in each of these musicals – Sally Bowles, Roxie Hart, and Molina – try to survive in a difficult, cruel world by escaping into show business fantasy. I first read Manuel Puig’s novel when I was in my twenties, and loved it. The groundbreaking Hector Babenco adaptation followed a decade later, one of the first films to feature a gay man as a leading character. I revisited the novel about ten years ago, and was struck by how ahead of its time it was, especially in its approach to sexuality and gender.
Q: In terms of embarking on the adaptation, where did you begin?
Bill Condon: I met with composer John Kander, whom I knew from Chicago (Fred Ebb, the lyricist, had passed away by then) and Terrence McNally, who had written the libretto. I told them I wanted this version to be more true to the novel, which at the end of the day is a love story. Terrence was immediately open to the idea, and shared his frustration that in the early 1990s it had been necessary to make Valentín’s interest in Molina more transactional to appeal to a broader Broadway audience. The next step was trying to get the rights to the novel – it took forever to figure out who controlled them. Finally, about three years ago, Tom Kirdahy, an esteemed Broadway producer who was also married to Terrence McNally, called and said that Barry Josephson, a major movie producer, had tracked down the rights.
Q: Why was it important to you to make this film independently?
Bill Condon: The whole point of making a new version was to do it without compromise – which is only possible on a smaller budget.
Q: How faithful did you want to remain to the stage production? Did you know going in what changes would be required to bring this story to the screen?
Bill Condon: In the novel, Molina narrates the story of six different films; in the musical, his stories focus more on his favorite actress than the films she made. I decided to create a single film for Molina to narrate, a musical called Kiss of the Spider Woman. This is probably the biggest invention in this version, and it involved constructing a Golden Age movie musical that would gradually start to reflect what’s going on between these two characters, with the prison and musical slowly intersecting and ultimately becoming almost the same thing.
Q: Was the adaptation process made easier by your experience with big-screen musicals?
Bill Condon: I’m very much like Molina in my love of musicals from the 1930s to the 1950s. These movies are dreams brought to life in images, with so much story being told through color and movement and music. Of course there’s a lot of silly stuff too, but you come to treasure the thirty minutes that’s transcendent, which is what I tried to focus on in this movie.
Q: Of the fifteen songs that appear in the film, how many are from the stage production and why did you ultimately select those songs?
Bill Condon: Well, it’s interesting because this is one of John Kander’s greatest scores; it’s really the closest he’s come to writing an opera. So, it was painful to realise that there was so much that wouldn’t fit into the more grounded approach I wanted to take to the prison scenes. We probably used about sixty per cent of the Broadway score, enhanced by songs that had been written for the show but hadn’t previously seen the light of day.
Q: Jennifer Lopez became involved early in the life of the production. Did you always have her in mind to star?
Bill Condon: Absolutely. This part demanded a very strong actress who was also a great musical performer. In addition, she had to embody the style of a different time, conjuring up performers like Rita Hayworth and Cyd Charisse. Let’s face it, we don’t have very many true divas anymore – you can probably count them on one hand. I’d heard through the grapevine that Jennifer was looking to do a traditional musical. Of course, we all know what an incredible dancer she is – but that voice! It’s a legit, powerful instrument that I think will surprise people who only know her from her pop career.
Q: And Diego Luna? How did he come to play Valentín?
Bill Condon: As with Jennifer, Diego Luna was our first and only choice for the role. We needed an actor who was going to commit to the love story, which meant someone with an open and infinite soul. He brought invention and wit to a part that might have felt strident in other hands. I think he’s a flat out great actor, among the best I’ve been lucky enough to work with. And he’s spent as much time doing theatre as film, so he brought that vast experience to what is in many ways a two-character play.
Q: How did the casting process for Molina unfold and how did you land on Tonatiuh?
Bill Condon: One of the great things about making this movie for Artists Equity is that there was no pressure to cast someone based solely on name value. When I told Ben Affleck that we wanted to cast a wide net for Molina, he enthusiastically supported the idea. We did an extensive search in America, Europe, South America and Mexico, several hundred actors in all. Tonatiuh sent in a self-tape from Los Angeles, and it was remarkable. We then worked together in New York, where we also put them through their dance and music paces, ending with a day’s rehearsal with Diego – at which point they emerged as the obvious and only choice. Then they were immediately thrown in the deep end – choreography rehearsals with Jennifer Lopez, scene work with Diego Luna – which Tonatiuh navigated with astonishing grace and confidence.
Q: Could you describe the visual approach to the musical numbers?
Bill Condon: When he arrived in Hollywood in the early ‘30s, Fred Astaire, who had been a huge star on the stage, insisted that his numbers be shot in wide angles, with as few cuts as possible – so that the audience would understand that every one of his marvellous moves was real, and not some kind of movie effect. (As opposed to Busby Berkeley’s production numbers, which depended on wild camera angles and editing for their effect.) We took the Astaire approach for the Hollywood numbers – at one point Jennifer dances with five partners without a single cut. The one exception was the number “Where You Are,” which exists purely in Molina’s imagination. This was inspired by the more contemporary style best exemplified by Bob Fosse’s Cabaret, where editing becomes as much a part of the choreography as dancing is. As for the design, it was all about color. If you look at musicals directed by Minnelli, or Mamoulian, or Cukor – so much of the interior life of the characters, and the tension between them, is expressed through color.
Q: How long did it take to develop the choreography? And for the actors to learn it?
Bill Condon: We worked together for four or five months before we started shooting. With musicals, choreography is really the last step in the writing process, because story needs to continue through song. Sergio Trujillo and his co-choreographer Brandon Bieber and I sat together for weeks throwing ideas around, and immersing ourselves in the musicals of the period. Sergio has a special connection to the material, as he was in the ensemble of the original productions, and partnered with Chita Rivera. So he knew it in his bones.
Q: At what point did the actors record the songs for the film? And would you say that performing those songs, acting through them, served as additional preparation for the shoot?
Bill Condon: Yes. This was done in the M-G-M style, with the actors singing along to their recordings as they were being played back on set. The recording sessions were done in the last two weeks before we started shooting, and we were privileged to have John Kander in attendance throughout. Not only could he share insights from the perspective of someone who invented what we were only interpreting – he’s also seen more productions than anybody alive, so he knew all the opportunities… and the pitfalls. It was a love fest, especially for John and Jennifer.
Q: What was the atmosphere like on set? How did it feel to watch the song and dance sequences come to life?
Bill Condon: This movie was basically made in two parts. For the first month, we shot the Hollywood musical scenes on soundstages in New Jersey. Usually when you make a musical, you shoot one or at most two numbers a week, interspersed with dramatic scenes. Here we shot them all back to back, three or sometimes even four a week. This was only possible because of Jennifer Lopez. I do not think there’s another human being who could have achieved what she did here. You start with that mind-blowing talent… enhanced by a lifetime of experience… and add a work ethic and stamina that left those of us lucky enough to witness it speechless. It’s something I will remember forever.
Q: How did that experience compare to filming the dramatic prison scenes?
Bill Condon: Once the musical scenes were completed, we moved the production to Montevideo, Uruguay, where all the prison scenes were filmed. We started with an intensive rehearsal period, as if we were putting on a play, then shot the scenes in order over several weeks. This was when the relationship between Diego and Tonatiuh really blossomed – not only in the exploration of their characters, but in a shared sense of dread – Oh my God, we’ve just done an intense six-page scene and we’re doing another one tomorrow. That tension added an extra level of reality to the scenes – and for me defines both the struggle and the joy of independent filmmaking.
Q: What does it mean to you to have the film premiering at Sundance?
Bill Condon: My first trip to the festival was with Gods and Monsters in 1998, and the story of how Kiss of the Spider Woman came into being is remarkably similar. A script written on spec without studio notes or interference… stars who were passionately committed to bringing that script to life… and a financing entity, Artists Equity, which, like United Artists in the 1930s, was created to support the vision of their filmmakers. All of us who made this film feel incredibly fortunate to be unveiling it in a place that has celebrated uniqueness of vision for almost fifty years now. Let’s face it – without Sundance, there is no Gods and Monsters, and no Kiss of the Spider Woman.
Q: It feels somewhat serendipitous given that the movie musical is having such a cultural resurgence right now.
Bill Condon: Musicals have been having a resurgence since they were first declared dead in 1931, I think they’ve been resuscitated more often than Dracula. One of the reasons the genre always bounces back is that, as with suspense and horror, musicals are enhanced by the communal experience. In recent years we’ve been searching for reasons to go back to the theater, and musicals, when they work, give you that extra jolt of pleasure.
Q: Given your lengthy history with independent film, Oscar®-winning movie musicals and other big-screen blockbusters, what would you say you’re most proud of having achieved artistically with Kiss of the Spider Woman?
Bill Condon: When I was researching Kinsey, I was struck by an idea that the world still hasn’t caught up to – that human sexuality is as individual as a fingerprint – that there are as many sexualities as there are people. Sharing a brutal prison existence allows the two characters in this film to strip away all the markers and classifications society imposes on them – class, ideology, sexuality, gender – and see each other purely as individuals. It’s still a revolutionary idea, and I’m proud that people are responding to it.
Bill Condon (Writer/Director) is a celebrated film director and screenwriter who first came to Park City with Gods and Monsters, a poetic meditation on the final days of Frankenstein director James Whale. Kiss of the Spider Woman not only marks Condon’s return to Sundance, but a reconnection with the work of legendary songwriters John Kander & Fred Ebb, whose stage musical Chicago he also adapted for the screen. Condon wrote and directed Kinsey, an uncompromising portrait of one of the 20th century’s most influential and controversial figures, which starred Liam Neeson and Laura Linney. His acclaimed adaptation of the Broadway smash Dreamgirls. Other recent films include the blockbuster musical Beauty and the Beast, The Good Liar, and a celebrated revival of the musical Side Show, which premiered at Washington D.C.’s Kennedy Center before coming to Broadway.
